Zoom Logo

First U ABQ 8th Principle Conversation - Shared screen with speaker view
Mia Noren
22:52
54 so far
Linda Skye
26:51
67 now counting two in a room
Linda Skye
27:45
Everyone was really listening
Julica HdlF
27:49
truth telling
Kathy McKnight
27:56
We knew each other well and trusted each other.
Justin Ford
27:57
Engaging discussion with full participation
Shelley Alonso-Marsden (she/her/ella)
27:58
Everyone was eager to learn for each other
Lucy Silva, First Unitarian, ABQ, NM
28:02
Acceptance of all
heatheraclark
28:06
Honesty
Carl & Kim Henney
28:09
we all felt safe
Mia Noren
28:09
Everyone felt connected
Nancy Shane
28:13
trust in the room and it was relaxed
marilynoboyle
28:14
Trust and openness
heatheraclark
28:15
Laughter
David Bouquin
28:15
we were connecting being interested in each other expereinces
Gary Carlson
28:16
Meeting 8 people to eat together--good friends, good conversation
Angela Merkert
28:16
patience with listening to each other
Nina Stephenson
28:17
It felt safe
EmmaLia Mariner
28:17
People took time to make every person feel special and known
Jennifer Johns
28:17
Good listening
Lucy Silva, First Unitarian, ABQ, NM
28:18
Sharing with vulnerability
Richard Sonnenfeld
28:19
Not being told what to believe
Mikaela R-W (she/her)
28:24
remembered how much we loved each other
Alana Rodriguez
28:24
Listening and processing before speaking
Elly Van Mil she/her
28:27
Willing to share in ways we had never done. Full fast exchange.
William Baker
28:27
non-judging
Winona Fetherolf
28:27
It was going well because the people were open and respectful/
Maya
28:34
Energy
Lea Ann Boone she / her
28:35
people listened to each other and everyone had time to talk
David Gick
28:40
Deep connection.
Rev. Jane Davis
28:46
felt safe enough to risk vulnerability
Anna Watkins (she, her)
28:46
All "on the same page" and excited about what we were doing together
Reed (him/he) & Lia (they/she) Atherton
28:48
Trust and covenant present
Sheryl Guterl and Carlton Holte
29:04
The leader was using images and language with which I resonated.
Carl & Kim Henney
29:06
group agreement of boundaries: no interrupting, no crosstalk
Richard Sonnenfeld
29:08
Not rushed
Ollie Bradstreet
29:26
patience and kindness re needs like eating, stretching, resting etc
Mara Hoffman
29:32
familiar surroundings & people
suecoates
30:00
One class I taught where all students got interested.
Jake Barkdoll
30:09
common knowledge
Elly Van Mil she/her
30:25
new knowledge never shared before, but needing to know.
Alana Rodriguez
33:03
It is always part of our covenant with youth.
Kathy McKnight
36:58
I get it. Sounds good.
David Bouquin
37:02
makes sense
Richard Sonnenfeld
37:05
This process feels too rushed.
Justin Ford
37:12
I appreciate this approach
heatheraclark
37:17
Sounds like some good ground rules to us.
Shelley Alonso-Marsden (she/her/ella)
37:21
Seems doable
Ollie Bradstreet
37:22
I’ve never heard of Whoa before and I’m looking forward to using it in other spaces
Linda Skye
37:55
great prep for this group
suecoates
37:59
Helpful tips
Torre, Albuquerque, NM, USA
39:39
Strong opinions.
Nina Stephenson
39:39
In favor of 8th principle. Ready to vote.
Gary Carlson
39:41
feeling comfortable with it
Christine Robinson
39:41
here to listen
Margo Milleret ABQ NM
39:42
curious and with questions
Maya
39:42
Listen
Nissane and Jayson Capps
39:42
Listening mode- still learning
NC Magnusson
39:44
curious, just listening
Justin Ford
39:45
I have an opinion, and plan to support the principle, and I’m interested in seeing where this group is
William Baker
39:47
curious
Kathy McKnight
39:51
I haven’t engaged in conversation about this with this community, but I’m very comfortable with the proposal for the 8th principle.
Winona Fetherolf
39:52
curious, on the edge of the unknown. Yes, questions.
David Bouquin
39:53
Want to listen to other folks opionin on the 8th, I am voting for 8th
Geri Knoebel
39:55
strong in favor of 8th principle
Carl & Kim Henney
39:57
curious and mostly decided?
Elly Van Mil she/her
40:01
Favor this Principle be accepted, just wanting to listen in and learn more.
Linda Skye
40:01
I’m ready to vote but really want this process, Thank you
Nancy Shane
40:01
support, ready to vote, curious
Richard Sonnenfeld
40:01
Concerns with 8th principle
heatheraclark
40:07
We are listening and have positive opinions about the 8th.
Sharon Stepler (she/her) & Bill Stepler (he/him)
40:13
Listening. Favor the Principle.
Lucy Silva, First Unitarian, ABQ, NM
40:14
I agree that it appears rushed - though we say it's been a year, it seems that once we vote, that will only be the beginning!
marilynoboyle
40:16
Ready to vote for the 8th Principle and also really dig in and put it into practice
Mikaela R-W (she/her)
40:17
ready to vote yes. love listening
EmmaLia Mariner
40:17
I am here to listen and contribute as needed, but strong opinions for the adoption of the 8th
Mary Wright (she/her) and Keith Christopher (he/him))
40:22
curious and listening and have unformed questions
Lea Ann Boone she / her
40:28
have been thinking about the 8th Principle for more than a year, will vote yes, still not sure about how our church will put it into practice
Kathy McKnight
40:29
Listening and in favor of the 8th principle
Linda Mickle
40:33
I support the 8th Principle.
Pamela Livingston (she/her)
40:34
curious. have some opinions. In general in favor of adopting the 8th principle depending on how it is to be implemented
Ollie Bradstreet
40:37
In favor and supportive of the 8th. Listening, because I haven’t been able to come to other discussions. So curious what my beloved community has been thinking and feeling about this.0
Shelley Alonso-Marsden (she/her/ella)
40:39
Followed along w 8th Principle discussion at the church I grew up in where my mom still attends. Curious about its application to us.
Jennifer Johns
40:45
I know without even learning anything that I am totally for the 8th principle. My life’s work has been focused on equity.
Angela Merkert
40:50
The 8th principle seems to be to be a natural next step in addressing justice issues to address out of our values, our beliefs.
Cheryl Romanek
41:04
In favor of the 8th Principle. Only concerned with how wordy it is. Have submitted a more concise version that I hope captures the fullness of it.
Pat Cox Diem
41:10
listening and in favor of adopting 8th principle
Alana Rodriguez
41:14
I am excited for us to vote, and hopefully adopt, the 8th principle. I am looking forward to what comes next. Also, as the only program staff person who identifies as BIPOC, I am curious what this will all look like.
Shelley Alonso-Marsden (she/her/ella)
41:19
Want to ensure we are ready to walk the walk not just talk the talk.
Cheri Plavnick
41:20
I believe that it would have been better had we had at least is months of opportunities for congregational discussion on this, preceded by some suggested group readings.
Mia Noren
41:38
Ready to vote, and will vote for it, but, as a religious professional have been learning about this for longer than most people here.
Nina Stephenson
41:44
Modifying response... also want to listen in addition to being in favor
Becca Granato
41:50
We used Ouch and Woah and oops in our family but they had different meanings
Mara Hoffman
42:00
I've become familiar with 8th & ready to know others thoughts
iPad (5)
42:33
Not sure how I will vote and I want to listen
Jordan Jones
42:59
I am in favor of the 8th principle and know why it’s needed, but don’t know that I am far enough on the journey myself, as much as I hope to be.
Jennifer Johns
43:29
Want to make sure the adoption results in action and not just talk and feeling good about ourselves for adopting it.
Jake Barkdoll
44:03
Why are we focusing on the 8th principle when a rewrite of Article II is happening?
Kathy McKnight
44:43
Where is this issue nationally? Have other congregations voted?
Nancy Shane
44:47
How will be gauge our success over time?
Margo Milleret ABQ NM
44:47
Why can't we begin anti-racism work without an 8th Principle?
Sheryl Guterl and Carlton Holte
45:08
Can it be states more simply?
Pamela Livingston (she/her)
45:08
How will we carry out the 8th principle? How can we gauge its effectiveness?
Winona Fetherolf
45:26
How do you anticipate the 8th principle with change the nature of our church?
Richard Sonnenfeld
45:27
Why do we think that the 8th principle will solve the problem of lily white congregations? Is there any data at all from other congregations who have already adopted
Jennifer Johns
45:29
How will we specify actions to accomplish this?
Nina Stephenson
45:36
I know ministers aren't supposed to guide this decision, as the congregation needs to make the choice. How will ministers manage this initiative if congregation votes in favor?
Dámaris Donado
46:05
https://forms.office.com/pages/responsepage.aspx?id=GOzcUUxfIE6MVfi6ThPv9IGeig3dXJVFs1B9j8GnZ0BUNlA2VEpJU05FVkdLQTgyRjgwNllBQzFORC4u
Pat Cox Diem
46:35
What changes are anticipated if we adopt the 8th principle?
Carl & Kim Henney
47:14
What is the article II process?
Lucy Silva, First Unitarian, ABQ, NM
47:44
How does the process of adopting an 8th principle differ from congregations becoming "welcoming"?
Dámaris Donado
49:03
https://www.uua.org/uuagovernance/committees/article-ii-study-commission/blog/8thprinciple
EmmaLia Mariner
51:40
>250 congregations voted; is that the number of congregations who have adopted it?
Dámaris Donado
52:15
Yes @ EmmaLia, approx.
EmmaLia Mariner
52:33
Thank you, Dámaris
Mia Noren
52:35
We have a children's version too.
Christine Robinson
53:11
The children's version is probably more succinct!
Carl & Kim Henney
53:15
What is the children’s version?
Kathy McKnight
54:29
Long Beach posts this version: “8th Principle: We must work together for diversity and against racism and oppression"
Kathy McKnight
54:38
https://www.uuclb.org/about-us/our-beliefs/uu-principles-sources/kids-principles/
Carl & Kim Henney
54:56
Is it too late to simplify the 8th principle wording?
Dámaris Donado
55:20
@Carl & Kim
Dámaris Donado
55:25
https://forms.office.com/pages/responsepage.aspx?id=GOzcUUxfIE6MVfi6ThPv9IGeig3dXJVFs1B9j8GnZ0BUNlA2VEpJU05FVkdLQTgyRjgwNllBQzFORC4u
Mia Noren
55:55
Carl & Kim: Children's version- Build the Beloved Community, free of racism and oppression.
David Bouquin
56:22
Intend is so important , 8th is so important needed now, and need action now we can modify wording over time
Justin Ford
01:06:13
@mikaela well said and great cat!
Carl & Kim Henney
01:07:33
What will we be voting on exactly?
NC Magnusson
01:07:58
Could you please read the 8yh principle to refresh our memories
EmmaLia Mariner
01:08:24
“We, the member congregations of the Unitarian Universalist Association, covenant to affirm and promote: journeying toward spiritual wholeness by working to build a diverse multicultural Beloved Community by our actions that accountably dismantle racism and other oppressions in ourselves and our institutions.”
Mia Noren
01:09:09
As with the children's version of all of our principles, it is a jumping off point for the 4 to 11-year-olds to begin to understand those ideas.
EmmaLia Mariner
01:09:28
You did say my name correctly 🙂
Kathy McKnight
01:10:42
https://www.uua.org/lgbtq/welcoming/program
Geri Knoebel
01:12:20
We became a Welcoming Congregation in 1995.
David Bouquin
01:12:47
I like the current version on the 8th prinicple, it is a good pledge, like a pledge like the pledge of allegience we recited as children in school
Hobbit & Charlie Merritt
01:17:20
Yes, what he says!
Alana Rodriguez
01:17:57
https://www.8thprincipleuu.org/why-single-out-racism
iPad (5)
01:18:24
That was extremely helpful
Becca Granato They/Them
01:19:09
I don’t think it’s a waste of time to have this principal in place. We may know our principals but outsiders looking for churches who don’t know our principals seeing that in our principals may spell things out a little more clearly (my opinion)
Carl & Kim Henney
01:20:23
Language is key to communication, yet the discussion about the wording doesn’t seem to be an option. This seems counter to being UU?
Lucy Silva, First Unitarian, ABQ, NM
01:21:36
Ouch!
Justin Ford
01:21:40
The quotes that were in the Widening the Circle from religious professionals were stunning.
Justin Ford
01:22:41
I see a few WHOAs
Alana Rodriguez
01:24:23
Mia and I were also there.
Jordan Jones
01:24:31
As long as voting on the first principle an early step in the process, encapsulating our commitment to the work … and then we actually do the work, I will be glad to vote yes.
Mikaela R-W (she/her) | Board Prez
01:24:37
8th Principle website:https://www.8thprincipleuu.org/
Jake Barkdoll
01:26:04
The current principles are easy to understand for non-UU's. That is one of the attractions of them. The proposed 8th principle is dense, convoluted , and complicated. I am concerned that it might turn off some potential members.
Jordan Jones
01:26:33
(Of course, my comment was about the 8th principle, not the 1st.)
David Bouquin
01:26:39
I think that is good question. Have congregations got more involved in anti-racism after they passed the first 8th priniciple and made progress in their congregations - I think Mistakes and Mircales chronciles that but more examples are also good.
Alana Rodriguez
01:27:47
Admittedly, this is very difficult for me to hear. I am going name this from the 8th principle website: For people identified as white, it is too easy to ignore these issues, which is exactly what keeps the system of racism in our society alive and in fact worsening right now. We need to de-center whiteness and other dominant cultures in UUism.
Justin Ford
01:28:42
@Alana - this matches my experience as a white man
Reed (him/he) & Lia (they/she) Atherton
01:29:07
Reed says - Covid and elections have made it difficult to stay connected to all the work we still need to do.
Ollie Bradstreet
01:29:16
Whoa
Linda Skye
01:29:17
Thank you Alana
suecoates
01:30:14
Can someone provide us the children’s version here?
Alana Rodriguez
01:30:41
THANK You!!!!
Kathy McKnight
01:30:56
Mia wrote: Children's version- Build the Beloved Community, free of racism and oppression.
David Bouquin
01:31:27
I like the term dismantle
Dámaris Donado
01:31:36
Thank you, Heather. I feel you, Alana. Me too.
Lucy Silva, First Unitarian, ABQ, NM
01:31:38
Thank you, Heather, for prioritizing the work versus the words
Mia Noren
01:31:41
Build the Beloved Community, free of racism and oppression. But in my opinion, the current proposed language is more complex and nuanced, and there are reasons for the way it's worded which are explored on the 8th Principle website.
Becca Granato They/Them
01:31:51
The Children’s version is much more plain and easy to understand?
Justin Ford
01:32:02
@heather - I’ve seen that treatment first hand, thank you for identifying that
Sharon Stepler (she/her) & Bill Stepler (he/him)
01:32:15
We agree with Heather’s comment.
heatheraclark
01:32:32
@Justin - thanks for confirming. I appreciate that!
EmmaLia Mariner
01:32:35
I agree with the perspective that perfectionism in language hinders progress in meaningful work
Kathy McKnight
01:34:20
I don’t like the wording either. And I see the need for the conversations: understanding how racism functions beyond our personal value systems. However, I feel the urgency that we vote on this first and work on the wording and understanding later, given how much suffering has already happened.
EmmaLia Mariner
01:35:36
I also do not think that the wording is harmful; I feel like there is a lot of energy being put into saying “I agree this isn’t perfect, but…” instead of “I think this part is valuable”/“the principles wording makes me think of this…”
Mia Noren
01:35:41
Becca: Children's version of all of our principles and sources are directed at our 4-11 year-olds,, so that they can begin understanding these ideas. Discussion of the ideas in the language of the current 8th Principle as proposed are part of beginning on the path to working together on racism and oppression.
Mikaela R-W (she/her) | Board Prez
01:35:44
Love you and honor you, Alana!
Kathy McKnight
01:36:04
Disclosure: my son is one of the BIPOC youth who loves the church and feels strongly that he is Black in a White church and is not fully comfortable with that.
Jennifer Johns
01:36:18
Thank you Alana.
Winona Fetherolf
01:36:49
Thank you, Mia.
David Bouquin
01:36:50
I think lets risk trying nuance long wording and get started , we can refine it later
Mia Noren
01:38:20
Thank you Kathy- that is often the opinion of our BIPOC Coming of Age participants.
Nina Stephenson
01:38:46
Thanks Alana!
Rev. Jane Davis
01:39:37
Please explore those resource link lists broadly distributed to all groups previously gathered on this topic?
Carl & Kim Henney
01:40:10
We are so saddened to hear racism is so prevalent in our congregation(s) behavior. First time, here tonight.
Alana Rodriguez
01:40:39
Yes! I agree. Not intentionally harmful.
Justin Ford
01:41:35
@Julica - go to Hawaii!!
Kathy McKnight
01:41:43
Carl and Kim and Everyone: Our (White) racism is often completely unintentional. It is often comes from our different experience and lack of awareness.
Alana Rodriguez
01:41:49
Yes, absolutely
Mikaela R-W (she/her) | Board Prez
01:42:30
That's the work! Beloved communities moving together at 800+ different paces! Loving each other where we are, encouraging moving toward justice. Not graceful but such good work.
Lucy Silva, First Unitarian, ABQ, NM
01:42:33
Carl & Kim - sorry you have not heard the perspective of our POC members at First U … we have found a safe space within our own POC group but have not necessarily "found our voice" or place as individual congregation members
Justin Ford
01:43:10
@Lucy thank you for sharing that perspective
Dámaris Donado
01:43:26
https://uuabq.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/FAQs-8th-Principle-2.pdf
Jennifer Johns
01:43:51
Sorry Mia. That should have gone to everyone.
Margo Milleret ABQ NM
01:45:44
One thing I learned from Mistakes and Miracles is that anti-racism is a long process and it goes in difference stages and steps.
Becca Granato They/Them
01:46:24
I agree def. A long process, not an “instant fix” the 8th principal is just a step on the path, not the be all to fix all.
Dámaris Donado
01:48:24
https://www.debbyirving.com/the-book/
Dámaris Donado
01:48:47
Excellent book
suecoates
01:49:01
Have we (whoever “we” is) considered having a section of every Sunday service specific to this, just as we have a section for formal meditation, a section for music, a section for youth (puppets), etc. Bring this subject into our normal routine.
Margo Milleret ABQ NM
01:50:25
How does the IDI help in our journey of anti-racism?
Jennifer Johns
01:50:32
Yes! White people need to do their own work so they are not harming BIPOC people. And BIPOC ARE exhausted and re-traumatized from further discussion.
Lucy Silva, First Unitarian, ABQ, NM
01:51:19
Thank you, Jennifer, for recognizing BIPOC exhaustion and trauma.
Carl & Kim Henney
01:53:05
How did we get here? Great read: History of White People
Jennifer Johns
01:54:22
My good friend who is African American has been mentoring me as I’m developing a comprehensive program to help teachers deal with the institutionalized racism on schools and begin to challenge and change it.
Alana Rodriguez
01:54:55
Yes, EmmaLia!!!
Richard Sonnenfeld
01:54:57
EmmaLia -- That is the best explanation I have heard.
EmmaLia Mariner
01:55:23
Thank you, Richard. I a so glad that it resonated!
heatheraclark
01:56:52
Yes, it is sooo important that we are talking together about this!
Jennifer Johns
01:56:55
You make me laugh, Richard! I love your sense of humor.
David Bouquin
01:58:38
Thank you everyone for being engaged
Mikaela R-W (she/her) | Board Prez
01:59:32
Ministers also wrote essays about racism in UU churches in this book: https://www.uua.org/products/centering
Jennifer Johns
02:00:01
Great!
NC Magnusson
02:01:43
what is the IDI
Dámaris Donado
02:02:14
@ NC https://idiinventory.com/generalinformation/the-intercultural-development-continuum-idc/
Alana Rodriguez
02:02:37
Thank you for holding space for me to share my feelings in the moment and being vulnerable in a way I am not usually without time to put my thoughts and feelings in order. I love this church.
Dámaris Donado
02:02:42
The Intercultural Development Continuum (IDC TM) describes orientations toward cultural difference and commonality that are arrayed along a continuum from the more monocultural mindsets of Denial and Polarization through the transitional orientation of Minimization to the intercultural or global mindsets of Acceptance and Adaptation. The capability of deeply shifting cultural perspective and bridging behavior across cultural differences is most fully achieved when one maintains an Adaptation perspective. This continuum is adapted from the Developmental Model of Intercultural Sensitivity originally proposed by Milton Bennett.
Gary Carlson
02:02:50
Julica, not everyone may know what IDI is.
Linda Mickle
02:08:34
Do you have any new groups forming to take the IDI?
NC Magnusson
02:10:13
Is there a children’s version of the IDI?
Alana Rodriguez
02:11:48
What Lucy is saying is a common micro aggression BIPOC people face in our congregation.
Julica HdlF
02:12:24
there is not an idi for children
Jennifer Johns
02:13:16
Lucy, thank you so much for expressing your feelings and reality in our church. We need to hear that.
Nina Stephenson
02:13:51
I appreciate you, Lucy.
Dámaris Donado
02:14:06
💗
Lea Ann Boone she / her
02:14:30
thank you, Lucy
marilynoboyle
02:14:39
Love you always, Lucy. LSC does too!
Gary Carlson
02:15:09
Thanks, Lucy
Mikaela R-W (she/her) | Board Prez
02:15:12
Want to honor everyone being here tonight. I so love you all.
marilynoboyle
02:15:30
Wonderful, open sharing.
Dámaris Donado
02:15:34
I need to stand and stretch and get off camera after a long day. I am also so grateful for this space.
Elly Van Mil she/her
02:15:42
Thank you all for sharing alongside Julica, Rev. Jane Damaris and all.
Gary Carlson
02:15:48
feeling some increased understanding and hope for our future as Beloved Community!
heatheraclark
02:15:49
I appreciate the conversation, questions, honesty and candid talk. We should do this more often!
Linda Mickle
02:15:52
Grateful to be part of this so needed discussion.
Margo Milleret ABQ NM
02:15:53
I feel that I have a new reason to vote for the 8th principle. Its a call to get to work now.
Lucy Silva, First Unitarian, ABQ, NM
02:15:56
Thanks for the participation - I have mixed feelings about the # of attendees - 50 YES, and where are the other 750?!
Jennifer Johns
02:16:09
My IDI group is Wednesday. I appreciated the reminder that people are at various levels and we need to appreciate that process and not”yank them” to where we are.
Alana Rodriguez
02:16:13
I’m grateful for this space and these people. I need to eat these ribs my instant pot has been cooking during our time together. And I need to connect to our POC group.
Reed (him/he) & Lia (they/she) Atherton
02:16:17
Reed - letting it all sink in
Nissane and Jayson Capps
02:16:18
I appreciate everyone that has shared so open and honestly.
Lea Ann Boone she / her
02:16:20
we need to find more ways to have these conversations
Nina Stephenson
02:16:21
I am grateful for the careful listening and participation of everyone here today. Thank you.
EmmaLia Mariner
02:16:37
I love the commitment to strengthening community in the process decision making
Winona Fetherolf
02:16:45
I am so very grateful to the facilitators of this meaning. Julica, especially, your facilitations has been awesome. So balanced and a model for this kind of conversation.
Carl & Kim Henney
02:16:47
Thank you all for Being here - everyone
Kathy McKnight
02:16:48
Thank you everyone and especially Julia, Rev. Jane, Damaris…
Nina Stephenson
02:17:03
Wonderful facilitation, Julica
Elly Van Mil she/her
02:17:22
Thank you, Julica.
Linda Skye
02:17:30
A good conversation, I need more of the same with our careful shaping of our “container” as a model
suecoates
02:17:36
I still think the Sunday services should routinely acknowledge these things, every week.
Jennifer Johns
02:17:40
I really appreciated watching you work, Julica, because I will be doing that shortly with teachers.
Sharon Stepler (she/her) & Bill Stepler (he/him)
02:17:57
Sharon says: I appreciate the sharing, the thoughtful comments, and the commitment to this important work. And I really appreciate Julica’s wonderful facilitating!
Rodene & Stephen Phillips
02:18:16
Thanks to all for a very helpful evening.
Nancy Shane
02:18:17
Thank you. Felt like masterful facilitation.
Ollie Bradstreet
02:18:23
Thank you